Requested Posting by my Ex-N/S's Ex-wife

I, of course will publish this response at your request…. with my reply insertions. :)


Whew! Guess I hit a nerve. Your bluntness is appreciated but I think in your haste to publish you forgot some aspects of my situation in particular, and, in general, the reality that most people have to hold down jobs where they encounter N/P bosses and will become a liability on society or someone else if they just up and run away. Or, as in my case, they have children with N/Ps which puts them in an unbreakable parenting partnership for 15-20 years unless blood is shed.

Nope… no nerve. Just stuff I’ve been thinking for a while. I am working with an N co-worker at my job now and am planning to quit and find another one if she isn’t dealt with by the management. There is no unbreakable parenting situation, especially when there is abuse going on AND THERE IS ABUSE going on. Difficult to prove yes, but you have lots of documented evidence, witnesses and a diagnosis from a professional. At the very least you could fight for professionally supervised visitation, forced counseling etc.

I realize you cannot fully understand the shift a child creates, but one of the things I have valued in our friendship is that you have been the one person who seemed to truely understand just how much strength it takes for me to co-parent with It and forfeit my personal life in the process. Clearly your empathy on that front did not run as deep as I thought and/or you felt the need for a smackdown here. Since you publicly posted your point of view on my coping skills I hope you will be fair enough to your readers with children to publish this response.

I empathize completely with your pain. In fact my intention in this dialogue is to help alleviate it. In coming in contact with other survivors with children AND knowing Moms in other kinds of abusive situations I know it is possible (albeit VERY difficult) to get out. My empathy is what makes me want to see an end to the abuse. Where we conflict is our view of the situation. I don’t believe you are co-parenting. He is not parenting, he is abusing and damaging you and your son. I lived with him for a year and spent a lot of time with him while he was “parenting” your son. No divorced couple engages with each other in the way that you two do (weekly dinners in your home, holidays spent as a family) let alone with a pathological ex. What It calls co-parenting, and demands with threat of reprisal is designed to keep you deeply entangled in his web.

Of course you are correct that all victims should RUN from narcissists & sociopaths and maintain NO CONTACT in order to thrive. I told you that the minute you saw the real It and you've read it over and over in your research. However, you've also read and forwarded to me plenty of info on how to cope with a pathological if you can't run (i.e. "The Wizard of Oz and Other Narcissists").

Yes. And that’s what I meant by support. I wholly agree with the feminist shelter movement that we must always support a victim’s choices and you know that I think you’re amazing (how many times have I said you are the strongest woman I know?!) But ultimately there is no can’t… definitely more you CAN DO in your situation. You’re financially solvent. You have a network of friends for support and buckets of evidence that you are dealing with a sociopath. There is no reason on earth that this man should have so much control over your life and be allowed to continue damaging that boy.

If I follow your well-meaning, simplistic advice to RUN, my son will end up living with his narcissiopathic father fulltime with no reprive, validation or actual love as I will be serving jail time for kidnapping.

That’s the fear he’s nurtured in you. I know you’ve done general research, but have you checked into all of your options and rights with an attorney specializing in this area? With the women’s shelter? A therapist?

I'm assuming you were not suggesting that I run and leave my child behind. Even if I could convince my little boy that he is being abused because mommy is not being respected and he is being used for supply (have fun explaining "supply" to a child), I could not find a court who would grant me sole custody on the basis of invisible abuse. I have read the legal blogs on lovefraud.com etc and my situation would be laughed out of court. My support check arrives on time, the father never misses a frequent and fun-filled visit, the child returns bubbling with joy at the great time he's just had and there are no visible bruises.

Yes… all GIGANTIC challenges. But there is so much more information available on invisible bruises and so many more avenues for victims to utilize now. And of course I wasn’t suggesting you leave your son behind. But there is absolutely a way to limit the hours It spends alone with him and end the hours YOU are spending with It. It misses visits when it’s convenient for It. We know that. We also know that the less compliant your son becomes the less bubbly will be the times with Dad. I watched your son scramble for entire weekends trying to please It. We both know that It can be a fun playmate and yes that poses a HUGE challenge, but I maintain that no amount of fun trips and outings are worth the damage that is being done. This is where we’ve always disagreed.

You know that I know there is irreparable damage being done to my son by his N/P father under the surface. You know that I have a thorough understanding of what's happening to him and it sickens me and breaks my heart more than words can convey. I guess hitting me over the head with it was helpful to you in some way even if it wasn't kind. For the record, you did not enlighten me here. I'm fully aware that my son's father is deeply emotionally ill and therefore an abusive user (evil, if you prefer that term) and that it is very damaging for my child to be around him, but you offer no responsible, viable option for how I'm suppose to keep the boy away from his father.

I’m sorry if you think it was unkind. It of course wasn’t meant to be and it in no way serves any purpose for me other than presenting a perspective from outside of It’s web, having been in it . A perspective you haven’t been able to see since you started dating It. I know you know, but I also know a lot more now about how a pathological keeps victims in a state of constant fear and anxiety. It’s part of what makes us stay (in whatever capacity) and comply to their wills. Just as it was impossible for me to think clearly while I was caught in It’s web I am suggesting that there is more that you can do than you’re allowing yourself to consider because you are still being manipulated.

Running away is the ideal situation and all victims without children should definitely make every effort to do so, but it really isn't a realistic option for those of us who need to earn a living and have to provide support and security for a child enrolled in school. And, yes, all therapists will tell me that my only option for a real life with happiness is to get completely away from It while at the same time all say that I cannot demean the father to the son and I cannot legally take the child from the father.

Given that you can’t legally take the child you legally limit It’s contact and you protect yourself with no contact. Because there are no legal constraints on It, It has manipulated your life in order to maintain It’s fantasy family, including frequent family dinners cooked by you, family outings to film openings, fireworks displays and GrandIt’s house and mandatory holiday dinners. I agree there is no way you’ll be able to ban It from your son at this point. But there IS so much more you can do to protect the both of you from damage. I’m suggesting your fear is preventing you from doing that.

There is no way it is appropriate for me to tell a 9-year-old that his father doesn't really love him. That will not square up right now with what he regularly experiences. I can move across the country; the result being that my son will spend half the year living with his father and half living with me. All the therapists also say that bouncing around is bad for the kid and all agree that the less time the child spends with the father the better.

Those aren’t the only options. A good therapist , who is well versed in sociopathy and PTSD can help your son understand what It is and isn’t capable of in a way that is appropriate to his age and square up with his experience. NO need to move, but certainly no need to continue as a family. Yes the less time with It the better. What we need to keep in mind is that most of the advice that’s out there about what is good for kids in divorces is based on kids of normal divorced parents, not of sociopathic fathers. Let’s look at it this way… if It were a child molester, serial murderer (Ted Bundy was fun too!), or drug dealer would that advice apply. NO! Well, YOU KNOW that most sociopaths stay below the legal radar, but it doesn’t make the damage they inflict any less damaging. What I’m saying is you can’t think about your situation as if it is a normal divorce. That’s It’s story. It loves to brag about how it is co-parenting and how cool and close you two are. It calls you It’s best friend!!!

Well, the only legal way for him to spend less time with his father is for him to live with me in a stable environment (i.e. home with paid mortgage in one place, consistent schooling, actual love and boundaries from mom) and visit Dad for short periods of time (in my case, an average of 30 hours a week including sleep overs). Is that too time much given the pathology? Of course it is, but it is the least I can get away with legally and any chess move I make will only increase the time the kid spends with Daddy. If you see a move I have that I can't see, by all means please advise.

Again I hear fear talking here. Is it warranted? To some extent possibly, but I do see moves. Lots of them . First putting an end to the fantasy family. How confusing for a child to see his divorced family try to act like a united family, especially when that’s what he wants more than anything. The more the fantasy is built up the harder it will be when it comes crashing down around him. That means no more holidays, in your home visits etc.

I also want to point out that lots of kids do fabulously who have moved around from state to state apartment to apartment with one or both parents. Kids are very resilient and very few kids have the kind of Leave It to Beaver stability that is the Itman fantasy life. Kids need REAL love and genuine bonding more than the best house and school district. Your son is entrenched in a life that is a lie. A lie that is composed, orchestrated and conducted by It.

I completely agree with your point of view if it was all just about me. In your world it really is just all about you. You do not have a child to think about and focusing as much time as you like on your pain and alleviating it is an option for you. That is not my situation as you well know. I have to make having the N/P in my child's life work in the most pleasant way possible while mitigating the damage with validation and all the other tools my knowledge gives me. Judge away from over there, because I know for sure that I'm doing everything I possiblity can to keep my son and I as healthy as is feasible given the reality of our circumstances and I just have to live with the rest of it like anyone who has a handicap.

Yes. I am judging. Remember that I am the first person who has been caught in It’s web and seen from the inside what is happening to your son AND who has escaped AND who is in a position to give you that perspective. I am thinking about your son and I am considering what I would do if I were in your shoes with It’s child… something you know I once longed for with GREAT envy. I love your son. I bonded with him. I miss him. I hate what’s happening to both of you with all of my being. I have also talked to other mothers who are survivors. There is more than one view here. The fact that I don’t have a child is irrelevant.

I've been at this for 8 years and I have not made the decisions and choices I have in my own little vacumn. Not a year has gone by that I have not distanced myself more and more from It, the holidays and mixed visitation the older my son gets. There has been a lot of changes in how I handle many aspects of things since you left and I have absorbed the retribution dished out by the Its without blinking. I think you are forgetting that I allowed myself to be included in group things more often when you were on the scene as I enjoyed your company and having the 4th person made it seem less like I was his wife and more like we were just a group of people who all cared about the kid. I will not be repeating that mistake, but that was my thinking at the time as you and I have discussed. The way you are remembering how I move through the holidays is not how it's done without you and less and less how it's done with each passing year as my son gains age and understanding.

YAY!!! I hope this trend continues and the pace quickens! And I enjoyed my time with you as well as you know. :)

It really is ridiculous to think I can just tell It and the grandmother to their face that they are sick Ns and think that they will sculk away and leave me and my son alone if only I had the balls to call them out. Seriously, Laura, you know that I can scream it in their face and they will just grow a new skin in 5 minutes and go about their next purpose. The only result will be that my son will experience hostility and fighting and my energy will be further drained.

I’m really not trying to oversimplify how incredibly difficult your life is and has been. I know it has. Nor am I oversimplifying how extraordinarily difficult it will be to change the situation from what it is. Nor does what I meant by “coming out” mean screaming in their faces. What I mean is letting others know exactly what It is officially, with a therapist, the women’s shelter. REPORT the abuse! And what I’m suggesting is working QUICKLY toward NO contact for you. Figuring out a way to mediate and protect the child WITHOUT succumbing to the fantasy life. There are agencies and people out there who are able to clearly see the invisible bruises and who call a sociopath a sociopath. Not suggesting they’ll be easy to find, but they’re out there and they can help.

There will absolutely be a time to name it for what It is to my son, but 9-years-old isn't it. I know for sure that bad-mouthing his father will get me the opposite of what I want for my son. He will loathe me for telling him the horrible truth. He, just like the girlfriends, must experience It revealed before I can say much of anything. I do not sugar coat the It's behavior and when my son experiences the rants, selfishness and entitlement, I make sure he knows the label for it and that I don't respect that behavior. You're suggesting I inform my child that his father and grandmother are evil and he must never see them again. I know for sure that doing so would cause another kind of damage. I'd rather not be his abuser.

I agree and we’ve discussed this. I LOVE LOVE LOVE the devices you come up with to help your son unpack what’s happening to him without badmouthing It. What I am suggesting is that there are ways to help him understand the reality without playing into the fantasy AND without becoming the bad guy. A good therapist can help you do that.

Here’s a thought. Find a counselor trained in sociopathy and start going regularly with your son. (If money is an issue demand it from It. It’s HEALTHCARE for your son!) Then demand that his father attend sessions periodically. Of course It will try to refuse, but if It really wants to maintain the mask of normalcy It will have to consider going for the benefit of the child. This will help your son and you cope while building up a stronger arsenal for future battles.

You reference that one of the first girls on the scene after my divorce asked to meet with me which you suggest was my que to warn her. She was asking the right questions for what she knew at the time and I answered her in full and then some. She left the meeting and discussed my comments with It who then learned to not facilitate private meetings with the girlfriends and me after screaming at me for "filling her head with my poison." She ended up leaving It a year later when she had a belly full. Nothing I said caused her to leave until she experienced him in full, but my telling her he was untrustworthy had the affect of limiting my ability to drop clues to the future victims.

Did you say NPD? Abuse? Sociopathy? I remember you telling me how guarded and careful you were with your answers for fear of retribution. Honestly, if you had asked me to look up NPD or sociopathy when we met I would have taken you very seriously. I understand your hesitation, but I think you underestimate the power that’s behind an accurate label. I also think you underestimate how much women watch each other’s backs. We take each other’s experiences very seriously. Not always, but usually.

I have to say that I'm more than a little suprised by your black & white approach to what I thought you understood was a very complex issue. You are clearly angry with me for not warning you, but even your own friends couldn't talk sense into you at the time. I tried to point out that it was crazy for you to commute to school from NY to PA, etc., and you would hear none of it. I'm sure you thought at the time that I was just trying to keep you away from him. How was I suppose to warn you when you were being told by the love of your life that I was a jealous crazy woman? You are out of control to publicly criticize me about not saving his other victims when we've been over this many times and you know full well that neither you or any other girl will listen to my warnings until she's seen under his skin. You can certainly argue that he uses me to enable his abuse, but my focus has to be on what is best for my kid and not on saving people who are not of a mind to be saved when they are under his spell.

No, I am not angry with you for not warning me. And I am not criticizing you for not warning It’s other victims. I understand fear, especially the fear of his retribution. And it’s not your/our job. What I am suggesting is that you aren’t acknowledging the reason for not being more forthcoming, i.e. fear.

My own friends NEVER met It. My therapist at the time told me that the relationship sounded extremely healthy and like it was the first time I had ever experienced REAL intimacy. (How good is his ability to mimic when it’s even translated third party!!!) That was the picture they got. My friends started to see the changes in me much later. It was when Ty said “I don’t know who the fuck you are any more” that I partially woke up!! No, I didn’t think you were trying to keep me away from It. I trusted you from the beginning. The reality was that I was commuting the same distance either way, living up there or in Central PA. Your argument for me not moving up there wasn’t applicable.

I could not be happier that you were free to run and are building a new life in AZ. I don't want to see the massive effort to accomplish that tossed aside with the beer bottle.

You know I was abusing alcohol like crazy when I was with It. I even smoked pot with It (Another abuse It is often high when “parenting” and driving your son around.) Astonishing really. I went from an almost total Tea-totaller to drinking almost every day. I drank to escape the pain It was inflicting on me, and to be quite honest, I think I knew that it would end up pissing It off to the point of no return. The irony is that my self-destructive behavior was actually self-preservation.

I like good beer. I don’t abuse it any more. I rarely drink to escape now (excepting a less and less frequent trigger episode) because I have escaped. But I still like beer. :)

My point, said with love, was that you might want to consider adding some other layers in your life as what I'm hearing from you (I'm particularly thinking of your 1st anniversary blog and a phone conversation we had last month) is that you are not happy with your weight and how it's making you feel and that is connected to medicating your pain with junk food and beer.

Without chronicling my daily diet, there is no junk food in it. Yep I still drink a beer when I get home and sometimes with dinner. I also drink a beer after a really hard ride. My weight gain happened primarily during the first three months of healing. (Yep medication) My high blood pressure and depression kept me much less active for the last year. My life here is actually becoming very rich. I’m developing a network of friends, I have a job. I’m slowly regaining focus enough to work on my thesis. I’m in a wonderfully healthy relationship with an amazing man. I ride almost every day now and have three wonderful four pawed kids. All that I ever wanted… yes tainted with PTSD and all that comes with it. But I’m doing everything possible to get better. I’m in therapy. I’m reading, going on a retreat. Hypnosis, EMDR…And maintaining no contact.

I know that ONE of the pieces of the healing pie is being occupied/distracted with tasks that add to your life. I completely understand that you get high on helping other victims and validated in therapy and research and those are also important parts of the pie too.

Blogging and helping doesn’t get me high. In fact it pains me. I just wrote another e-mail to someone asking for my help explaining that I am not qualified and sending links to available options. Yes it is validating to be in contact with so many other survivors, but it is also very saddening to know just how many of us there are.

I was merely suggesting that you can't have healing without the whole pie and spending the bulk of your time with your mind and energy focused on NPD and other forms of victimizaton cannot be a good thing. As with everything in life, it is not balanced. I believe my exact words were along the lines of next year how 'bout adding some time focusing on your career, sports and home. I never suggested you stop therapy or stop helping others with all the expertise you have gathered over this last year or that making the decision to treat yourself different was easy.

Remember that my career BI demanded I spend the bulk of my time with my mind and energy focused on forms of victimization. That’s what I mean by my background and why I feel obligated to continue the work.

Also, consider that you and I spend most of our time talking about NPD. Gives you a pretty one-sided view of my life. I wish you lived closer so you could come hiking with me and the family. We could go out for beer afterward. ;D

You have all the ingredients for the best Christmas you've had in several years, and I truly hope you have a wonderful time and savour it. Love, O

Will do!

Love you (and the child) too! l-